Legislature(1993 - 1994)
02/16/1994 09:16 AM Senate STA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE STATE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE
February 16, 1994
9:16 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Loren Leman, Chair
Senator Mike Miller, Vice Chair
Senator Robin Taylor
Senator Jim Duncan
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Johnny Ellis
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE BILL NO. 227
"An Act relating to terminal rental adjustment clauses for motor
vehicles and trailers."
HOUSE BILL NO. 117
"An Act naming the Manvil H. Olson Bridge."
SENATE BILL NO. 237
"An Act relating to offenses involving delivery of firearms to
minors and to offenses involving possession of dangerous
instruments, including firearms, by minors."
SENATE BILL NO. 267
"An Act relating to the training of law enforcement and corrections
officers; to the establishment of surcharges to be assessed for
violations of certain traffic offenses; creating the Alaska police
standards training fund; and providing for an effective date."
SENATE BILL NO. 216
"An Act relating to the sale, display, or distribution of material
harmful to minors at places where minors are allowed to be present
and where minors are allowed to view such material."
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
SB 227 - No previous senate committee action.
HB 117 - See Transportation minutes dated 4/8/93.
SB 237 - See State Affairs minutes dated 2/9/94 and 2/11/94.
SB 267 - See State Affairs minutes dated 2/11/94.
SB 216 - See State Affairs minutes dated 2/11/94.
WITNESS REGISTER
C.E. Swackhammer, Deputy Commissioner
Department of Public Safety
P.O. Box 111200, Juneau, AK 99811-1200¶465-4322
POSITION STATEMENT: opposed to SB 237
Portia Babcock, Aide
Senate State Affairs Committee
State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-2095
POSITION STATEMENT: prime sponsor of SB 237
Carol Carroll, Aide
Senator Kerttula
State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-6600
POSITION STATEMENT: prime sponsor of SB 227
Sharon Peek, Aide
Representative Menard
State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-2679
POSITION STATEMENT: prime sponsor of HB 117
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 94-9, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN LEMAN calls the Senate State Affairs Committee to order at
9:16 a.m.
Number 030
CHAIRMAN LEMAN announces that SB 194 (WAITING LIST FOR PIONEERS
HOME) will not be heard in committee today. The prime sponsor has
requested the committee to hold off on hearing the bill.
Number 022
CHAIRMAN LEMAN announces that SB 237 (WEAPONS POSSESSION/SALE BY/TO
MINORS) will be the first order of business before the Senate State
Affairs Committee today.
Number 141
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Mr. Swackhammer from the Department of Public
Safety if he and his staff wish to join the committee at the table.
Number 046
C.E. SWACKHAMMER, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Public Safety
(DPS), states after the department received a copy of the new
version of SB 237, the department submitted a seventeen page
document to the committee on the bill. Mr. Swackhammer notes that
several of the points made in the seventeen page document have been
incorporated into the new committee substitute for SB 237.
Number 092
SENATOR DUNCAN asks how SB 237 compares to the house bill relating
to the carrying of concealed weapons.
Number 100
MR. SWACKHAMMER says SB 237 is similar to the house bill, but there
are many differences. One, is that the house bill has training
requirements for qualifying for a permit to carry a concealed
weapon.
Number 103
SENATOR DUNCAN says the reason he is asking is adding a concealed
carry provision to SB 237 makes the bill more controversial than it
needs to be. He wants to know why the committee wishes to do this,
since there is another bill which already addresses the concealed
carry issue.
Number 116
CHAIRMAN LEMAN says he thinks it is a topic that ought to be
discussed and he saw SB 237 as a reasonable vehicle for doing so.
The chairman thinks if the committee looks at the Department of
Public Safety's comments and suggestions, then it is possible that
SB 237 could be crafted so that it is less controversial than it is
currently.
Number 127
SENATOR DUNCAN asks what DPS's position on the original bill was,
which only included a provision addressing juvenile possession of
weapons.
Number 132
MR. SWACKHAMMER says the department was in the process of reviewing
SB 237, when the provision for concealed carrying was added. At
that point, the DPS concentrated on the concealed carry portion of
the bill.
Number 136
SENATOR DUNCAN wants to know if there was any discussion of just
the original bill, without the concealed weapons provision, that
indicated any support or opposition to it.
Number 140
CHAIRMAN LEMAN states there was testimony from the Division of
Family & Youth Services (DFYS). The chairman believes that, with
the exception of some minor technicalities which need work, there
will not be much opposition to that portion of the bill.
Number 153
SENATOR DUNCAN asks if DPS had a position on the juvenile
possession portion of SB 237.
Number 156
MR. SWACKHAMMER says DPS did review that portion of the bill, and
saw it as a positive tool for law enforcement.
Number 158
SENATOR DUNCAN asks if any significant opposition has surfaced to
the juvenile possession portion of SB 237.
Number 160
CHAIRMAN LEMAN says no significant opposition has surfaced, just
minor fix-ups on some of the definitions, and whether a juvenile
should go straight to adult court.
Number 184
PORTIA BABCOCK, Aide, Senate State Affairs Committee, states
committee members should have a new work draft committee substitute
before them (8-LS1365\U) and a memo from Jack Chenoweth,
Legislative Drafter, dated February 14, 1994. Ms. Babcock reviews
the changes in the new work draft cs.
Number 286
SENATOR MILLER moves the committee adopt the new committee
substitute for SB 237.
Number 289
CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objection, notes that work draft
8-LS1365\U has been adopted in lieu of the previous committee
substitute. The chairman asks Mr. Swackhammer to walk the
committee through the department's responses to SB 237.
Number 294
MR. SWACKHAMMER states the Department of Public Safety (DPS) has
prepared a seventeen page document on issues relating to concealed
carry that the department would like to see addressed by the
legislature. The document has been submitted to the committee.
Mr. Swackhammer reviews the document submitted by DPS.
Number 341
SENATOR TAYLOR asks about a finding of delinquency on page twelve
of SB 237.
Number 346
MS. BABCOCK replies the penalty of suspension of driver's license
is an additional penalty for a juvenile who has a weapons violation
of carrying a weapon without permission from their parent or
guardian, not withstanding one of the exceptions outlined in the
bill.
Number 358
SENATOR TAYLOR comments that would only seem to affect a child
interested in driving.
Number 362
CHAIRMAN LEMAN states loss of driver's license is in addition to
penalties set out in section 9, paragraphs 1-5 of SB 237. The
chairman asks that the committee return to the briefing by Mr.
Swackhammer on DPS's seventeen page document.
Number 370
MR. SWACKHAMMER continues with his briefing.
Number 382
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Mr. Swackhammer if the department intends to
make the renewal as extensive as the original application.
Number 386
MR. SWACKHAMMER responds DPS does not intend to make renewal of
permits as extensive as the original application.
Mr. Swackhammer continues with his briefing.
Number 411
SENATOR TAYLOR says there needs to be a provision in the bill
allowing peace officers access to mental health information on
individuals.
Number 428
MR. SWACKHAMMER says that is a substantive issue for the
department. DPS currently has not access to much of the
information sources relating to mental health of individuals.
Perhaps applicants could sign a waiver allowing the department
access to that type of information.
Number 438
SENATOR TAYLOR is also concerned about paragraphs nine and ten on
page 5 of DPS's analysis, which state:
(9) is not now in and has not previously entered an alcohol
treatment program, unless the person presents the department
with a sworn statement of a medical or psychological pro-
fessional that the person has undergone treatment for alcohol
abuse and has demonstrated freedom from alcohol impairment for
the five years immediately preceding the application;
(10)...substance abuse treatment program....
Senator Taylor thinks that even on police forces one can probably
find that 15%-20% of the population are practicing alcoholics.
Senator Taylor finds these two paragraphs very offensive, because
we are trying to encourage people to get into alcohol programs, not
avoid the problem. Senator Taylor states under this paragraph,
George Jacko would not be eligible for a concealed weapon permit.
Number 461
MR. SWACKHAMMER responds DPS's premise is that lethal concealed
weapons are being placed among citizenry who do not currently carry
those. He states if a person has demonstrated a propensity to be
dependant on either alcohol or drugs, the thinking capability
during that period of time is absent for good judgement. DPS feels
if a person successfully completed any kind of treatment program,
they could be given an affidavit by a doctor that they are free
from that impairment.
Number 472
SENATOR TAYLOR states that as a practical matter, the doctor
doesn't know; there is no way to know if that person is a closet
alcoholic or not. There is not a single doctor out there who will
tell the committee he can tell whether or not someone is still
abusing alcohol. You are setting up the professional to be liable
for that kind of statement. Senator Taylor wants to know where the
magic number 5 years came from.
Number 478
MR. SWACKHAMMER says 5 years was taken from language in the bill.
Number 480
SENATOR TAYLOR says some drafter apparently decided 5 years was
probably a good amount of time.
Number 482
CHAIRMAN LEMAN states the document Senator Taylor is looking at is
DPS's response to the bill, so DPS didn't have anything to do with
the language in the bill. The chairman says he will flag this as
being a potential trouble spot in the bill, and asks that the
committee get back to the review of DPS's response to SB 237.
Number 488
MS. BABCOCK states the language regarding the alcohol treatment
program is in the current version of SB 237, however, the substance
abuse language is not in the bill. To make it more consistent, the
committee should discuss either adding the substance abuse
language, or removing all language relating to alcohol and
substance abuse.
Number 495
CHAIRMAN LEMAN states it is his opinion that whatever is done, it
should be consistent.
Number 498
SENATOR TAYLOR wants the committee to understand one thing: there
is a significant difference between a group of people who
voluntarily submit themselves to some form of alcohol counseling or
treatment, as Senator Jacko did- who here will step up and say he
is an alcoholic? Or that he somehow would have used or abused a
firearm in that condition? But that is what we are doing with this
legislation. Senator Taylor asks Mr. Swackhammer how police
departments get cops who have a drinking problem to get alcohol
treatment if this bill is passed. He says under this bill, a cop
would lose his job for five years, and then would have to get an
affidavit from a doctor before he could go back to work.
Number 510
MR. SWACKHAMMER states that for the Department of Public Safety,
when a cop has a drinking problem, the department makes sure that
person does not have a problem while on duty, or is dependent,
before being put back on duty.
Number 515
SENATOR TAYLOR asks Mr. Swackhammer if the department does not make
them wait five years.
Number 516
MR. SWACKHAMMER says DPS does not make troopers wait five years,
but SB 237 does not apply to police officers, it relates to the
permitting process.
Number 517
SENATOR TAYLOR asks Mr. Swackhammer to clarify that police officers
who carry a loaded 357 magnum 24 hours a day will not have to
comply with SB 237, but all the normal citizenry will have to wait
five years? Senator Taylor says he has known a lot of drunk cops,
and he is not really excited about the idea that cops can be
drunks, and then after a 30 day treatment program and smiling at
the chief right, they're back on duty with the loaded gun.
Number 519
MR. SWACKHAMMER says DPS did not propose the language in SB 237;
the language was already in the bill.
Number 520
SENATOR TAYLOR says he is only suggesting perhaps the playing field
should be the same for other human beings. Senator Taylor asks how
much time it takes for a cop to get back on duty after alcohol
treatment.
Number 525
MR. SWACKHAMMER states he cannot remember any specific
circumstances regarding police officers with alcohol problems.
Number 527
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Senator Taylor to work with Ms. Babcock to
address his concerns about provisions in SB 237 relating to alcohol
and drug abuse.
Number 530
MS. BABCOCK states it is true at this time that law enforcement
personnel are completely exempt from anything in these sections.
Number 532
CHAIRMAN LEMAN says it is his opinion that there be some
consistency. The chairman asks Mr. Swackhammer to proceed with his
reviewal of DPS's analysis of SB 237.
Number 533
MR. SWACKHAMMER continues with his reviewal.
Number 545
SENATOR MILLER asks Mr. Swackhammer what kind of training would
qualify a person for a concealed weapon, and if military training
would meet DPS's training requirements.
Number 051
MR. SWACKHAMMER says DPS envisions allowing police officers,
corrections people, and others with that type of training to
qualify for permits without additional training. He says 8-10 hour
courses dealing with gun safety, which also addressed the legal
parameters of using a weapon in self defense would qualify. He
says requirements for gun courses should not be put in statute, so
there can be flexibility in courses allowed.
Number 566
CHAIRMAN LEMAN says that could have negative aspects if, in the
future, DPS adopted repressive regulations, making it difficult for
anyone to qualify for a concealed carry permit.
Number 569
MR. SWACKHAMMER says that is not his intent, nor the intent of the
department, but if it would make Chairman Leman feel more
comfortable, a provision could be inserted in the bill stating
training requirements are not to exceed "x" number of hours.
Number 578
MS. BABCOCK comments the State of Florida has a four-page statutory
section addressing training requirements and exemptions.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN says the committee will work with Mr. Swackhammer to
develop appropriate language addressing training requirements.
The chairman states paragraph 12 on page 6 of the department's
analysis troubles him somewhat.
TAPE 94-9, SIDE B
Number 595
CHAIRMAN LEMAN says a person shouldn't have to justify wanting to
carry a concealed weapon.
Number 584
MR. SWACKHAMMER says the State of Washington has that clause in
their statutes requiring justification for carrying a concealed
weapon. Mr. Swackhammer continues his reviewal of DPS's analysis.
Number 577
SENATOR TAYLOR wonders if it wouldn't be a good idea to have
reflected on a person's driver's license that they have a permit to
carry a concealed weapon.
Senator Taylor is also concerned that a person who does not specify
that they have been to an alcohol treatment program on the
application for a concealed carry permit, even if that person
attended the program thirty years ago, is committing a class B
felony under SB 237.
Number 548
CHAIRMAN LEMAN says the committee might want to clarify what types
of inadvertent errors might force a person into perjury.
SENATOR TAYLOR says he meant someone intentionally disregarding
that question, not inadvertently omitting that information.
Number 543
MR. SWACKHAMMER continues with his reviewal of DPS's analysis of SB
237.
Number 526
SENATOR TAYLOR comments that there are abuses of departments, he
mentions the Department of Environmental Conservation, charging
exorbitant amounts of money when fees are allowed to be established
by regulation, instead of being in statute.
Number 521
MR. SWACKHAMMER says the departments do receive legislative
oversight, and the Department of Public Safety does have a good
track record. Mr. Swackhammer continues with his reviewal of DPS's
analysis of SB 237.
Number 476
CHAIRMAN LEMAN says he believes federal law applies to weapons in
school.
Number 474
MS. BABCOCK says state law prohibits weapons on school grounds.
The site in statutes is AS 11.61.220. Ms. Babcock states the
places where concealed weapons would not be allowed are: airports,
courts, correctional institutions, police stations, and The Alaska
Marine Highway.
Number 470
SENATOR TAYLOR asks if people will be allowed to carry concealed
weapons in the legislature.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if anyone in the room is carrying a concealed
weapon.
SENATOR TAYLOR says he is asking because it is allowed in Texas,
and it is estimated that at any given time, about 17% of the
members of the Texas Legislature are armed while on the floor of
the legislature. Senator Taylor says, in jest, that perhaps a
firearm would be a handy thing to have in the heat of debate.
Number 453
MR. SWACKHAMMER says the department recommends persons not be
allowed to carry concealed weapons into state or federal offices or
political subdivisions.
Number 448
CHAIRMAN LEMAN announces SB 237 will be held over until the
committee meeting Friday, February 18, 1994.
Number 437
CHAIRMAN LEMAN brings up the next item on the agenda, SB 227 (MOTOR
VEHICLE RENTAL TERMS) and calls the first witness.
Number 435
CAROL CARROL, Aide to Senator Kerttula, says SB 227 will address
Terminal Rental Adjustment Clauses (TRAC's) and clarify in statute
that just because these clauses are a true lease, does not change
the nature of that lease. This is important for two reasons: one,
it will hold down the rental cost to lessees; and two, it will
protect the lessor in bankruptcy cases where judges may determine
that the lessee had a security interest in the vehicle, and
therefore, hold them up in some manner, wouldn't return them to the
lessor, or would use them to satisfy some of the debts of the
lessee.
Number 414
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if this provision doesn't appear in the Uniform
Commercial Code (UCC). Ms. Carroll replies it does not.
Number 413
SENATOR TAYLOR says the reason he believes it is not in the UCC is
there would be a debate as to whether or not the lessee has
acquired an equity interest within the property. He asks why the
legislature should, as a matter of policy, deny the creditors of
the bankrupt the opportunity to go after that asset?
Number 375
MS. CARROLL says SB 227 states that a TRAC, in and of itself, does
not change the nature of a lease. That lease may be a security
interest lease, but the bill is only saying, just because this
clause is in a lease, does not necessarily mean the lessee has any
equity in the property. Also, TRAC's usually appear in commercial
leases; they very rarely are consumer leases.
Number 360
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if anyone has any further comments or questions
about SB 227. Hearing none, he asks what the pleasure of the
committee is.
Number 359
SENATOR TAYLOR makes a motion to move SB 227 from the Senate State
Affairs Committee with individual recommendations.
Number 358
SENATOR LEMAN, hearing no objections, releases SB 227 from the
committee with individual recommendations.
Number 355
CHAIRMAN LEMAN brings up HB 117 (NAME MANVIL H. OLSON BRIDGE
(SCHROCK RD.)) as the next order of business before the committee.
The chairman calls the first witness.
Number 353
SHARON PEEK, Aide to Representative Menard, states HB 117 would
name a bridge the Manvil H. Olson Bridge. Mr. Manvil was a builder
of make-shift bridges. Many people in the area already refer to
the bridge identified in HB 117 the Manvil Olson Bridge.
Number 339
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Ms. Peek if, in her opinion, there is strong,
local support for naming that particular bridge after Mr. Manvil.
Ms. Peek replies that there is very strong, local support.
Number 326
SENATOR MILLER makes a motion to move HB 117 from the State Affairs
Committee with individual recommendations.
Number 325
CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objection, orders HB 117 released from
committee with individual recommendations.
Number 323
CHAIRMAN LEMAN adjourns the Senate State Affairs Committee meeting
at 10:29 a.m.
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